In this episode of Hexagon’s Public Safety Speaks vodcast series, panelists share ideas about how the industry can better support the professionals who work inside fire stations, police departments, EMS and 911 centers, especially in the face of the myriad challenges the industry has recently experienced.
Watch as Chris Carver, longtime industry veteran and director of market development for Hexagon’s Safety, Infrastructure & Geospatial division, welcomes two well-known industry professionals:
- Dr. Michelle Lilly, professor of clinical psychology at Northern Illinois University
- Ricardo Martinez, founder of Within the Trenches Media and I Am 911
Watch the vodcast or read the transcript below.
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Transcript
Chris Carver:
Hello everyone, and welcome to another edition of Hexagon’s Public Safety Speaks vodcast series. My name’s Chris Carver, I’m Hexagon’s director of market development and very happy and incredibly honored to have as my guest today, two folks renowned throughout the public safety industry, for their work on really, one of the most fundamentally important issues that affects public safety professionals on a daily or hourly basis, especially in the face of the myriad challenges we’ve experienced in the public safety world, over the last few years.
So, without further ado, I want to introduce Dr. Michelle Lilly and Ricardo Martinez, our guests here today to talk about this incredible topic of health, safety, wellness and how we as an industry can do better at supporting our professionals, that work inside our fire stations, inside our police departments and EMS, and of course in 911, as well. So, that’s what we’re here to talk about. Without further ado, we’ll kick it off and I’d love to just actually have each of them kind of provide a little bit of their story. How did they come to be involved and how they come to be passionate and committed to helping our industry and profession improve in these areas. Dr. Michelle Lilly, would you like to kick it off?
Michelle Lilly:
Sure, I’d be happy to. So, Dr. Michelle Lilly. I’m a Professor of Clinical Psychology at Northern Illinois University. I’m also licensed clinical psychologist, offering evidence-based treatments for PTSD, depression, anxiety for first responders and families, do training in the topics of PTSD resilience, stress management, wellness, and also work going into agencies as a consultant, helping them figure out what are the central challenges that they’re facing and when necessary going in and having some intervention and critical conversations.
I came into this field a little bit unknowingly, when I was in graduate school, I worked on a research project with retired police officers. When I started at my job at NIU in 2009, I was kind of talking about that project with a non-traditional student who was working in my lab, Heather Pierce, we’re kind of talking about cops and some of the challenges that they face. And then, she, the next day said, “Hey, by the way, I worked in 911 for seven years and there’s no research on mental and physical health in 911.” And then, she started telling me about the job and my jaw progressively dropped to the floor and I said, “We need to do a project.”
So, she leveraged the relationships that she had. We collected some initial data, that was published in 2012, on the rate of PTSD and depression in 911. I, honestly at the time thought, this is going to be a project that’s of interest to me and I’m passionate about, but it’ll probably end there. But the response to that data and that paper was huge. And so, 911 put their hooks in me and I’ve never left, and I’ve continued to do research, over the past decade on mental, physical health and predictors of mental and physical health within 911. I also work with law enforcement and fire, as well.
Chris Carver:
Wonderful. Thank you for that. We’re glad we’ve gotten our hooks in you, that’s a great thing. So Ricardo, tell us about your start. You’re kind of picking up the ball really from where Dr. Lilly began.
Ricardo Martinez:
Oh, of course. I started dispatching in 2001, and for everything that I do right now, I am the founder Within the Trenches Media, also the founder of the I Am 911 movement and the host and creator of Within the Trenches podcast, where I have dispatchers come on and they share their stories on what it was like for them in the beginning, some of the calls that they’ve taken, how it’s impacted them, how the job has changed them, all of that. But before that, for 13 years, I was a 911 dispatcher and supervisor, and I’ve been in public safety for 22 years now. While I was dispatching, I ended up kind of hitting a burnout, and everything that I do now, actually stems from my own struggle in dispatch with the calls that I was taking, and I didn’t really have people to talk to.
We weren’t talking about it as well, in dispatch, so I didn’t know really where to go. There wasn’t a lot of resources either. When I would just simply go get my hair cut, people would ask, “What is it that you do for a living?” And then, I would think, “Should I tell them?” Because, of course, the thing that’s going to end up coming out is, “What is the worst call you’ve taken? What’s the craziest call you’ve taken?” In the beginning, I’ll admit, it was kind of annoying. Why are people asking this? Why do I want to relive this? But I decided to switch my mindset and turn it into public education, because as humans, we are just naturally curious, so why not just share what it is? Not in detail, not all of the detail, just enough though, for people to understand what it’s really like for us.
So, when people started talking about it, or asking rather, I started sharing it and where I had a fear in the beginning of looking weak for asking for help or for sharing a story, I didn’t care about that anymore because I needed to find a way to help myself. By sharing, it was therapeutic. So, I thought if I can continue to share these stories, not just mine, but have others share as well, it might be therapeutic for them, and that’s where all of this started, especially for this topic, was through my own struggle and I wanted to kind of leave 911 in a better place than where I found it, where there would be more resources where people would feel comfortable to talk about their calls and just to continue to share and grow.
Chris Carver:
So, it’s fair to say, Ricardo, that you figured out very quickly, you weren’t alone. This was something that was universal. Would you agree with that?
Ricardo Martinez:
Oh yeah, for sure. As soon as I started talking, especially in my own center, everyone else started sharing their stories as well. We were able to bond and not just that way with each other, but those out in the field started to understand more what we go through, and I think that really bridged that gap between all of us.
Chris Carver:
So, Dr. Lilly, would you concur from your experience, coming in as an outsider that this is a far more universal experience for those in this profession than maybe anyone ever thought before?
Michelle Lilly:
Absolutely. That very first study was published in 2012, and I was invited to go speak at APCO that summer in August in Minneapolis, and I was met with some real defensiveness, especially in those first couple years. I go to conferences and people sit back and glare at me, and I think there was this kind of reticence to talk about it, to acknowledge it. I think there were concerns about what that would do. It’s totally transformed in the last 10 years, so now you go to APCO, NENA, state level conferences, and they have entire tracks devoted to mental health and wellness. And so, I think there has been, in my just last decade, a huge change in willingness to talk about these things, to approach them, to acknowledge the impact that it’s having on the workforce. So, it’s been quite a transformation.
Chris Carver:
I have to share sort of a personal experience that speaks to exactly what you just said, for both of you, really. After Superstorm Sandy, when I was working with the New York City Fire Department, I was the chief dispatcher for that time. We had a large number of dispatchers who were affected, and over 20 had their home seriously damaged or destroyed out of a workforce of 200, just on the fire dispatch side. And, it will stick with me forever, the reaction to a request to have a counseling team or a mental health professional support the dispatchers, as they work through the aftermath.
The direct quote I got, not from somebody above me in rank, but from somebody who was in a position where they quite frankly should have cared a little more, was, “We didn’t need no blank blank help after 9/11. Why do you think we need blank blank help now?” And, something to the effect of, “What do you think you are? A psychiatrist?” So, I’m very happy that we have a trained professional in that field to support that this issue is really, really important. So, that’s sort of from my own experience where we started, and obviously, you’ve seen this evolution, both of you over time. So, would you characterize this as getting better as a profession, on how we handle these types of situations? Ricardo, I’ll start with you.
Ricardo Martinez:
Yeah, I would say that things have definitely changed, especially when I first started talking about the podcast and sharing these stories. When I first started out, let’s say it was 2013. I was sharing all of these, and there was a director from a neighboring agency who actually got ahold of my deputy director to say, “You should have him speak at the Michigan NENA conference, and share what it is that he’s doing.” Her name was Geri Tapper, was the one who had talked to my deputy director, and rest in peace, she passed away a few years ago, but she was the one who told me immediately, “It’s about time. Don’t stop doing this because we’ve needed to talk about this for a long time.”
And then, over the years, it has continued to progress and progress, to where there’s resources out there and people are talking about it. I think one of the things too, that we needed was almost permission to speak, to say that it was okay and for others to see that it was okay, and then us continue to do what we’ve been doing. So, the progression has been great, and the resources are out there. Also, with the study that Dr. Lilly is talking about, she was actually one of the early guests on Within the Trenches Podcast and we talked about her study, so we’ve known each other that long.
Chris Carver:
Oh, wow. That’s great.
Ricardo Martinez:
Yeah.
Chris Carver:
Kudos to the work that you have both done, but I also think it’s important to be honest and recognize there’s work still to be done. Unfortunately, you just saw a very high-profile law enforcement officer in an event that happened in Florida this week. I mean, these things still occur. So, I think it’s fair to say we still have work to do, so what kind of work would you suggest, and Dr. Lilly, I’ll start with you. What are some things we need to start doing or need to do more of that we’ve already been underway to address these issues?
Michelle Lilly:
Yeah, absolutely. So, I think for me, in my role going around the country and doing trainings on PTSD and trying to help people build their resilience and wellness is, there’s still a critical piece missing from my perspective, which is that I go around and people are finally starting to talk about it, acknowledge it, people are feeling a sense of validation and community, around recognizing the struggles. But many departments are struggling, agencies are struggling with, “Okay, what is the next step to take?” So, sometimes people are like, “Oh, we’ll just have an EAP.” But, sometimes EAPs are not the best and they don’t have good, culturally competent clinicians that work with them, they offer limited a number of sessions, people are worried about confidentiality.
And so, I think the next challenge is, how do we build into agencies the resources that are easy to identify? They’re easy to access and they’re confidential, because what I’ve discovered very clearly is that people can be struggling and still be good at their job. So, I think a long history of feeling like, “Oh, if I’m struggling, I should not work, or I should leave, or I can’t work, or I’m going to get put on leave,” or something like that. People are still often able to perform very well, but that doesn’t mean that they don’t need the help.
So, working with agencies to identify, “Okay, what sort of boots are on the ground resources can we provide, whether that’s through retainer systems?” And then, on my end, trying to figure out how to make more clinicians culturally competent. So, I work with a lot of first responders who come to me for clinical intervention, and they say things to me like, “I went for therapy and the therapist cried,” or, “I went to therapy and the therapist told me that I should just leave my job and that’s my problem.” And so, then identifying and training clinicians out there, who are interested, invested in helping first responders, and are willing to do sit alongs, ride alongs and really understand the challenges of this job, to me, is one of the next critical steps.
Chris Carver:
Do you think, Dr. Lilly, that perhaps in the 911 world, we could use some of the lessons from the fire department, EMS worlds with sort of the peer counseling efforts, as a first step, not as an ultimate solution, but treating more of our own professionals of the warning signs and that initial… The first responder, mental health version to help folks? Have you seen an increase in the number of those types of programs or trainings?
Michelle Lilly:
Yeah, that increase is huge. I actually, just in the last three days, did a three-day peer support training for Cicero, which is right outside Chicago, high crime rate for their police department, their 911 center. My research shows that peer support is associated with risk for… So, if a department just has a peer support program, it reduces risk within the agency for PTSD, depression, anxiety, higher job satisfaction, lower turnover intention, so peer support definitely works and it really works by getting people to engage and approach behaviors.
So, approaching is when we talk, when we try to engage in problem solving, as opposed to using avoidant coping strategies, which tend to only lead to the development or maintenance of distress over time. And so, I think peer support is a fantastic way to get people to start talking, and then if the person needs additional resources, peer supporters can then refer out to clinicians, as needed. So, I’m a huge proponent of peer support.
Chris Carver:
Wow, very cool. And Ricardo, it could be said that your podcast and your efforts, in many ways, are a first step towards peer support, by getting folks to share their stories. Have you found that to be a side effect or maybe even an unanticipated benefit of your efforts?
Ricardo Martinez:
When I started this, I never thought that it was going to go where it has, and it has been just an honor to do it, to be able to share these stories. A lot of people have sent in messages, just as you’re saying, these are things that I’ve seen. I’ve had a lot of people send messages saying, “You know, listening to these episodes, not only one – prepared me for the job that I was about to get into, but also knowing that I wasn’t alone.” There’s people that have been in training, who were struggling in training and they felt alone. And then, listening to a lot of these episodes, a lot of these stories, similar calls that people have taken, they didn’t feel alone anymore and they wanted to continue going, but also hearing about other resources that we’re able to contact or take advantage of whatever resource.
Also, on the other end of that, those out in the field. For example, when I very first started this, I had a deputy, a good friend of mine, still a good friend, and very… I’d say kind of hardcore. What I mean by that is, he’s a ex-Marine and Marine to the core, and everything. Nothing shakes him. He had sent me a message and he says, “I want you to keep doing what you’re doing, because I learned more about dispatch in the first three episodes, than I have in my whole 20-year,” however long career it was at the time.
He goes, “Keep doing it because we’re learning from all of you, and now, when you tell me to stand by on the radio, you’re not just telling me to stand by for whatever reason, there’s actually a reason you’re not just sitting there.” I was like, “Thanks man, I appreciate that.” But, it actually did bring a lot of people together, but also as I said on this topic of mental health and wellness for people to not feel alone. I think that’s one of the biggest things that people feel.
Chris Carver:
Well, and that’s sort of a side effect too, of this… We have this walled nature in public safety. You’re the police over there, we’re fire over there, you’re EMS over there and we’re the dispatcher, so often physically and proverbially in the basement, literally hidden from view. That’s the first thing I would think that we have to overcome, as we move forward. So, who are some agencies that you’ve encountered, and I’ll go back to you, Dr. Lilly, who are some agencies that maybe you’ve encountered that are role models for this? Or, where should agencies find information or best practices, as they develop concern around this issue and want to move forward?
Michelle Lilly:
Yeah, absolutely. I mean, maybe it comes to mind because I was literally just there, but Cicero, Illinois, it’s a pretty high crime area, and they are just now starting a new dispatch center, because they used to have a contract with another agency and now they are creating their own. And, in a peer support training, there was management, the deputy director and the manager were in there with TCs, line level folks, as well as police officers, and whatnot. I walked in there the first day and I was like, this is not going to work. I had some hesitation, because I was thinking, no one’s going to open up in front of their direct reports or vice versa. Within half a day, people were just freely sharing. They were talking about their own struggles.
I got to see this unfold, and what is very clear to me, is that this agency, from the very start, has prioritized its people, it cares about wellness, it’s already developing a peer support program. More than anything, it’s just this level of psychological safety that is very clear that people have, there is no fear that what they say or what they talk about is going to be used against them. People are going to respect them as peers, even when they’re maybe not necessarily peers, and that has been very clearly communicated from the very start.
So again, maybe that example because I just finished up some peer support training with them yesterday. But I think just such a great example of putting your money where your mouth is, bring in people to do training and really management being vulnerable, right in front of their direct reports, which is required. Asking questions of direct reports, “Do you think we could do this better?” Risking the fact that you could be wrong, you could have been doing things wrong the whole time. So, I think that I would raise that up as a model of an agency that’s really doing it right.
Chris Carver:
Wow, that that’s actually a great story to share, especially if it’s so fresh, and just in your recent experience. Ricardo, you get to hear stories in your role really from around the US and beyond, about this. What are some highlights you’ve heard, or maybe some folks that others can copy their homework? This isn’t an exam in junior high. We can get this right by sharing from each other, and I think that’s an important part of this effort. So, where would you offer some insights, as places that you’ve experienced or heard about?
Ricardo Martinez:
There’s a lot of dispatch centers out there that are utilizing the power of peer support, but also the peer support animals, bringing them in dogs or whichever. Knox County 911 in Indiana, they actually have a peer support skunk. Seriously, it’s a skunk. The skunk, his name is Nugget, and I actually went there to that center to do an episode with the 911 call taker who brings the skunk in, and when I walked in, and I’ll be honest, when I walked in, I had been having kind of a hard week and she goes, “Do you want to hold him?” And I said, “Yeah, of course.” This story has been actually in the news as well, as this peer support skunk. I hold onto Nugget, and Nugget wraps his little arms around my arm and snuggles into me, and I thought, “Aw, he knew that I needed a hug.”
But a lot of agencies are doing things like this. I think Cobb County out of Georgia also has a reptile that they bring in. So, there are many different agencies that are doing things, but also to kind of bring their folks together. I actually just posted an episode today, with a person out of Ada County Sheriff’s office in Idaho, and one of the things that they do is they do a pool party. Now, we’ve always heard about the pizza parties. Well, this one is a pool party and everyone gets together and hangs out, and you’ve got this camaraderie with everyone that’s getting built up. But there’s one main rule, and that is no talking about work.
The other thing they have is they also have a dispatch softball team. Again, no talking about work, and I think that’s one of the biggest things to remember too, is when we get out there and we’re together, whether it’s with public safety or out of public safety, it’s good to have your group out of public safety, but when we get together with those, within public safety, let’s not talk about work. Let’s just talk about us and relate that way.
Chris Carver:
I’m curious, actually, I’d like to bounce an idea off you both. When I first started in this profession, and Ricardo, I’m sure you as well, there was a lot more of that kind of stuff. We went out after work, there was a police-fire softball tournament every year. There were so many more social engagements. I’m just curious from both of what you’ve heard, if some of this trend of busier lives and more obligations and everybody’s so stretched a million different directions, maybe one of the things that sort of got sacrificed was some of the time to do those sorts of things, and we stopped at least partially being humans together at work and outside of it. And then, it’s all work all the time and we really only see each other in that context. Maybe some of this, that we’re experiencing today is a little bit related to that, but that might also be a cure to making it a little bit better. Dr. Lilly, is that a possibility, you think?
Michelle Lilly:
Yeah, absolutely. I mean, we know it’s basic social psychology principles, the more familiarity with somebody the more you like them. So, just spending time with people as human beings, relating in that way without the pressures of work, is really terribly important and could be very effective. The only concern right now, that I see, is just the extent of understaffing. Since I’ve been kind of associated with 911 or working with 911. Staffing has always been an issue. Agencies have been chronically understaffed, but I think since COVID and with the great resignation, staffing levels are just so challenging right now. The level of mandatory overtime, call ins, forcing stay overs, so creating that time outside of the agency is really a challenge right now. So, I think it could be highly effective, but when you’re already spending lots of time plugged in, because you’ve been forced over into working a 16, what you don’t want to do is unplug and then go spend more time with those folks.
Chris Carver:
Absolutely. Absolutely.
Michelle Lilly:
So, I think it’s hard because the more stress, the more under staffing, the less people are able to connect, the less they connect, the more stress and under staffing. And so, I think we’re in a kind of challenging position right now, given the staffing crises across the country.
Chris Carver:
I think that’s really important, to identify that all of these things are interconnected. It’s not just… I think sometimes, especially folks that are not in public safety think, oh, it’s just the bad calls that make people stressed out. No, it’s a whole lot more things than that. It can be ineffective supervisors, it can be scheduling issues, it could be mandatory overtime issues, it could be work environment issues. It could be so many different components. Would you agree with that, Ricardo? Is that what you found in your time and your conversations you’ve had?
Ricardo Martinez:
Yeah. Especially, with a lot of the overtime that was going in. At a time, it was so bad, we were so understaffed that nobody was allowed any time off. Nobody. We went one whole year where there was no one who could take any time off. Also, so for us, so just for a quick example here, we’ve got this force in list, and if you volunteer for it, you go to the bottom of the list. So, there was so much overtime coming in, that a few of my friends and I were volunteering for it. However, as soon as we got in for the overtime that we were volunteering for, we were already getting forced for a couple more shifts the following week, so it was not good. It was dropping morale down.
Also, not to get into county politics, but you know how you’ve got PTO time, you have to use a certain amount or else you lose it. Well, we were going to end up losing a lot of that PTO time, but we actually fought for that and we fought it hard, so it was the only year during that time that we were allowed to roll it over. So, I had 300 hours worth of time off. But, even then, it was hard to plan anything, and I think one of those things that made it hard too was, I couldn’t spend time with my family, but also if anybody tried to invite me somewhere, “Sorry, I wasn’t going to be able to go in.”
There was all of these different variables that were making it very stressful. Like you said, it wasn’t just the calls, this is the overtime. This is me sitting in dispatch for almost 18 hours one time, and I’m just there. The only thing that kind of made it better, was that it was over a holiday and I was getting double time and a half, but even then, my back is hurting, my neck is hurting, so all of that.
Chris Carver:
Unfortunately, now that we’ve turned off anyone from wanting to become a dispatcher, let’s try to bring that back. Hopefully, they’ll stay on watching and hear this next part, because thankfully, there are agencies that are solving the staffing crisis. There are agencies that are figuring this out. Unfortunately, it’s a slow process and everybody kind of goes at their own pace, but there are places where it’s getting better, I would say, from the agencies that I’m fortunate to get to interact with, in my role.
For those that that are interested in this, for those that are considering becoming a dispatcher or becoming a police officer or a firefighter or a paramedic, all of which were having their own versions of staffing crises, with an eye on how they can address their mental health and ensure that this job becomes a productive addition to their life, as much as it can, given the challenges of what we do, what would you say to those who are interested? What would you say to them? To keep an eye on to make sure that it goes well, that their career is as successful as it could be? There’s going to be two advice questions I’ll give. The first one is for our new folks. Dr. Lilly, please. I’d love to hear your insight for those folks just starting out.
Michelle Lilly:
Yeah, absolutely. Well, I think part of it is incumbent on agencies, during early training and that first year, to do some resilience and mental health training. It has been a longstanding history of, suck it up buttercup and a lot of stigma to speaking up and we know that that suppression, that avoidant coping strategies, those really set people up for the potential for the development of longer-term mental health difficulties and maintenance of mental health difficulties. And so, I think partly, it’s on the agency level to make sure that we’re training folks early and providing recurrent training, in that regard, because the nature of the stressors and the challenges that you might have for your mental health also change over time, as you get older and you’re longer in your career and you have kids, and all that kind of stuff.
However, I can’t think of anything more noble than saving lives. This is a deeply meaningful job, where you have opportunities to literally save lives, to be the person who saves a family member, a friend, a kid. And so, I think that if it’s important to you to have a meaningful career, and we know that when people are living lives that are values consistent and they drive meaning from them, there’s real opportunity to stay more satisfied, over a longer period of time.
Chris Carver:
Absolutely. No, thank you for that. Ricardo, how about you?
Ricardo Martinez:
A lot of the stuff that we’ve mentioned here and stuff that I’ve mentioned as well, is stuff from years ago. A lot of us have worked on trying to, again, leave 911 in a better place than where we found it. There’s a lot of bad in 911 with some calls, of course. However, there’s a lot of good as well. When I was in dispatch, I helped deliver a baby. When I was in dispatch, I helped with a call where a caller’s daughter was stuck in the middle of a pond on thin ice. I was able to keep the mom calm. We got help out there and we saved her. I ended up getting… I have a piece of newspaper, an ad that was in the newspaper from this family saying thank you to dispatch, and also all the public safety that helped out. I will always have that. So, with all the bad, there is so much good, and if you want to be a part of something bigger than yourself, be a 911 dispatcher, a call taker, because this is very rewarding. It’s a great profession and it’s a career.
Chris Carver:
Well, thank you for that, Ricardo. I really appreciate that, and I just have to echo my own, whether it was working for a single seat fire dispatch center, here in Ohio, when I was going to Ohio State, or whether it was working for the New York City Fire Department, in both cases, getting the chance to work with an incredible group of professionals, who made an incredible difference every day they came to work was a great honor. It’s one that’s still a hallmark of our profession, and I couldn’t agree with you more, Ricardo. It makes it very much worth it. Speaking of advice, so what would you give… Ricardo, I’ll start with you. What would you say to our directors and managers out there, that may still, “Oh…” And I’m sorry, Dr. Lilly, I’m going to quote you the whole, “Well, suck it up buttercup. It’s fine. It’s part of what you do.” How do we get beyond them or negate their impact? Ricardo, what do you think?
Ricardo Martinez:
There’s one question that I ask a lot of my guests, actually every guest so far, these last few years, and that question is, “If you could go back in time with the knowledge that you have now, to speak to yourself in the beginning, what would you tell yourself?” A lot of people that I’ve asked this, they get emotional, and this is what I would ask those directors, deputy directors, all of those who are also trying to find a way to bridge their gap between management and those taking the calls. What would you tell yourself? With everything that you know now, what would you tell yourself?
Because I think one of the things with a lot of folks, is we forget what it was like for ourselves in the beginning. We forget or we bury those hard things. The things that made it hard for us, we don’t even want to think about it, some of us sometimes, but if you can bring that to light, use that as fuel for the new people coming in, I bet you you’ll be able to keep a lot of people. Of course, there’s a lot of different variables that go into staffing or whichever, but also as we’re talking about mental health and wellness, think about some of your own stories. What was it like for you? Share those, and I think that can bridge that gap.
Chris Carver:
Yeah, absolutely powerful. That’s the connective tissue no matter where you’re working or how many years you’ve had, everybody can relate to the challenging day and the challenging time and how they went forward from it, and maybe the help and support they needed to do so, in whatever form it took. So, absolutely. Thank you for that, Ricardo, I appreciate it. Dr. Lilly, I’ll end with you. Your advice to those in the leadership roles of our public safety organizations and our communities, from your professional standing, what would you say to them, based on your experience in this world, trying to help us get this topic to be improved and more awareness of it?
Michelle Lilly:
I think one of them is to think creatively, and I think sometimes, especially working within some municipalities, there tend to be rather bureaucratic, so it’s kind of like, “Well, this is how we do it and this is how we have to do it. This is how we’ve always done it.” But, I know some agencies that have staffing, for example, Kim Turner down San Bernardino County Sheriff’s Department, they did not have staffing issues because what she looked at was, okay, this is the problem in our agency, and the problem in this particular agency, is that we have a whole lot of people who have young children and they don’t want to work full-time. Or, they’d need more flexible hours, or they want to job share.
I know she’s told me, if she was here, she’d say, I went to the higher ups, and they said, “Well, we can’t do that,” and she was like, “Okay, well, why not?” And, through fighting the good fight, they were able to reverse engineer it, and they were able to create part-time positions and job sharing. And then, when those folks who were in those part-time positions and job sharing, down the road, they stayed loyal. They came back when their kids started school. And so, I just think looking at our staffing and our schedules at the way that we assign mandatory overtime and call-ins, there can be creative solutions, that I think sometimes when you’ve just done something the same way for a long time, there’s just that momentum going. And so, I think thinking creatively is another.
I think it’s hard because if you’re leadership, you’ve put in the time, you’ve put in the energy and you’ve come from a culture that was kind of this, suck it up buttercup mentality, and that’s not what’s working for the younger generation. If they’re not enjoying their job, if they’re not being fulfilled, if they find it really difficult, they’re more likely look for something else. And so, there needs to be a change in mentality, among leadership and management, from what they were raised in, to what is really needed now, and that’s hard. It requires people to look inside and do their own inner work and develop leadership skills on communication, and developing better psychological safety in agencies.
Chris Carver:
Well, thank you for that advice, and really, thank you Michelle and Ricardo, for living out exactly what you just said. You both looked at this industry in different ways, from inside and from outside, recognize the need and have devoted your careers really to helping us all get better and setting the stage for the continuation of our profession. That truly is appreciated, and I’m sure there’s many more conversations and insights to come. So, thank you both for being guests on this particular edition of Hexagon’s Public Safety Speaks. We look forward to seeing you, hopefully at APCO and other conferences to come, and well, to all of those who watch, thank you for attending. Thank you for viewing. Please feel free to share this with anyone else in the profession, who you think it might be helpful for. If you’re looking for other episodes, find us on YouTube on the Hexagon Public Safety Channel. Thank you all very much again. Have a wonderful day, stay safe and we’ll see you soon.
